[syrus]

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Walid268

ان تشكيكك في تهميش ماسينيسا ليوغرطة امر غير مقبول , ذلك ان كثير من المؤرخين أشاروا الى هذه النقطة و التي كانت نقطة فاصلة في تاريخ يوغرطة, أما قولك ان عمه مسيبسا هو من ارسله الى اسبانيا فهي المعلومة الشائعة و المتداولة أما الحقيقة فان جده ماسينيسا هو من أرسله - راجع كتب التاريخ التي تتحدث عن الجزائر في كتابات "العروي عبد الله, محمد شفيق , David Anthony Durham , Petrarch .
ليس كل ما هو شائع فهو صحيح, و الامر ينطبق على ميلاد يوغرطة أيضا و هو ما يشكك فيه الكثير اي انه من الممكن انه ولد قبل هذا التاريخ او بعده.
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و هنا خطأ فادح أيضا :
ذكرت ان روما توسعت على حساب الاسكندر, و أتساءل هنا كيف كان هذا التوسع و التاريخ لم يذكر اي استيلاء و لو كان شبرا من اراضي الاسكندر "356 ق م - 323 ق م" . فما بالك بوالده فيليب الثاني ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
اما استشهادك بالقبائل العربية في تحالفها مع الفرس في موقعة ذي قار فهو مثال مردود عليك أخي : ذلك ان القبائل العربية لم تكن تشكل كيانا سياسيا قائما بذاته و هذا الامر من اساسيات الدراية بالتاريخ عكس نوميديا التي كانت تشكل مملكة باتم معني الكلمة بالرغم من كون نوميديا اقدم بكثير من المناذرة و الغساسنة. " و هذا القول يتفي بطريقة تلقائية اتهامك لي بالعنصرية ضد الامازيغ.

سنكون شاكرين لك إن قدمت لنا المصادر التاريخية التي تثبت خطأ المعلومات الشائعة عن يوغرطة ... إلى ذلك الحين إليك أدناه ما ذكره المؤرخ الروماني ساليست في كتابة "حرب يوغرطة" و الذي يؤكد ما ذكرتُه سابقا من أن مسيبسا هو من أرسل يوغرطة لإسبانيا . و بإمكانك الإطلاع على الكتاب كاملا من خلال الرابط التالي :


https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7990

النص من كتاب حرب يوغرطة للمؤرخ الروماني ساليست :

V. I am about to relate the war which the Roman people carried on with Jugurtha, King of the Numidians; first, because it was great, sanguinary, and of varied fortune; and secondly, because then, for the first time, opposition was offered to the power of the nobility; a contest which threw every thing, religious and civil, into confusion,[20] and was carried to such a height of madness, that nothing but war, and the devastation of Italy, could put an end to civil dissensions.[21] But before I fairly commence my narrative, I will take a review of a few preceding particulars, in order that the whole subject may be more clearly and distinctly understood.
In the second Punic war, in which Hannibal, the leader of the Carthaginians, had weakened the power of Italy more than any other enemy[22] since the Roman name became great,[23] Masinissa, King of the Numidians, being received into alliance by Publius Scipio, who, from his merits was afterward surnamed Africanus, had performed for us many eminent exploits in the field. In return for which services, after the Carthaginians were subdued, and after Syphax,[24] whose power in Italy was great and extensive, was taken prisoner, the Roman people presented to Masinissa, as a free gift, all the cities and lands that they had captured. Masinissa's friendship for us, accordingly, remained faithful and inviolate; his reign[25] and his life ended together. His son, Micipsa, alone succeeded to his kingdom; Mastanabal and Gulussa, his two brothers, having been carried off by disease. Micipsa had two sons, Adherbal and Hiempsal, and had brought up in his house, with the same care as his own children, a son of his brother Mastanabal, named Jugurtha, whom Masinissa, as being the son of a concubine, had left in a private station.
VI. Jugurtha, as he grew up, being strong in frame, graceful in person, but, above all, vigorous in understanding, did not allow himself to be enervated by pleasure and indolence, but, as is the usage of his country, exercised himself in riding, throwing the javelin, and contending in the race with his equals in age; and, though he excelled them all in reputation, he was yet beloved by all. He also passed much of his time in hunting; he was first, or among the first, to wound the lion and other beasts; he performed very much, but spoke very little of himself.
Micipsa, though he was at first gratified with these circumstances, considering that the merit of Jugurtha would be an honor to his kingdom, yet, when he reflected that the youth was daily increasing in popularity, while he himself was advanced in age, and his children but young, he was extremely disturbed at the state of things, and revolved it frequently in his mind. The very nature of man, ambitious of power, and eager to gratify its desires, gave him reason for apprehension, as well as the opportunity afforded by his own age and that of his children, which was sufficient, from the prospect of such a prize, to lead astray even men of moderate desires. The affection of the Numidians, too, which was strong toward Jugurtha, was another cause for alarm; among whom, if he should cut off such a man, he feared that some insurrection or war might arise.
VII. Surrounded by such difficulties, and seeing that a man, so popular among his countrymen, was not to be destroyed either by force or by fraud, he resolved, as Jugurtha was of an active disposition, and eager for military reputation, to expose him to dangers in the field, and thus make trial of fortune. During the Numantine war,[26] therefore, when he was sending supplies of horse and foot to the Romans, he gave him the command of the Numidians, whom he dispatched into Spain, hoping that he would certainly perish, either by an ostentatious display of his bravery, or by the merciless hand of the enemy. But this project had a very different result from that which he had expected. For when Jugurtha, who was of an active and penetrating intellect, had learned the disposition of Publius Scipio, the Roman general, and the character of the enemy, he quickly rose, by great exertion and vigilance, by modestly submitting to orders, and frequently exposing himself to dangers, to such a degree of reputation, that he was greatly beloved by our men, and extremely dreaded by the Numantines. He was indeed, what is peculiarly difficult, both brave in action, and wise in counsel; qualities, of which the one, from forethought, generally produces fear, and the other, from confidence, rashness. The general, accordingly, managed almost every difficult matter by the aid of Jugurtha, numbered him among his friends, and grew daily more and more attached to him, as a man whose advice and whose efforts were never useless. With such merits were joined generosity of disposition, and readiness of wit, by which he united to himself many of the Romans in intimate friendship.
VIII. There were at that time, in our army, a number of officers, some of low, and some of high birth, to whom wealth was more attractive than virtue or honor; men who were attached to certain parties, and of consequence in their own country; but, among the allies, rather distinguished than respected. These persons inflamed the mind of Jugurtha, of itself sufficiently aspiring, by assuring him, "that if Micipsa should die, he might have the kingdom of Numidia to himself; for that he was possessed of eminent merit, and that anything might be purchased at Rome."
When Numantia, however, was destroyed, and Scipio had determined to dismiss the auxiliary troops, and to return to Rome, he led Jugurtha, after having honored him, in a public assembly, with the noblest presents and applauses, into his own tent; where he privately admonished him "to court the friendship of the Romans rather by attention to them as a body, than by practicing on individuals;[27] to bribe no one, as what belonged to many could not without danger be bought from a few; and adding that, if he would but trust to his own merits, glory and regal power would spontaneously fall to his lot; but, should he proceed too rashly, he would only, by the influence of his money, hasten his own ruin."
IX. Having thus spoken, he took leave of him, giving him a letter, which he was to present to Micipsa, and of which the following was the purport: "The merit of your nephew Jugurtha, in the war against Numantia, has been eminently distinguished; a fact which I am sure will afford you pleasure. He is dear to us for his services, and we shall strive, with our utmost efforts, to make him equally dear to the senate and people of Rome. As a friend, I sincerely congratulate you; you have a kinsman worthy of yourself, and of his grandfather Masinissa."
Micipsa, when he found, from the letter of the general, that what he had already heard reported was true, being moved, both by the merit of the youth and by the interest felt for him by Scipio, altered his purpose, and endeavored to win Jugurtha by kindness. He accordingly, in a short time,[28] adopted him as his son, and made him, by his will, joint-heir with his own children.
A few years afterward, when, being debilitated by age and disease, he perceived that the end of his life was at hand, he is said, in the presence of his friends and relations, and of Adherbal and Hiempsal his sons, to have spoken with Jugurtha in the following manner:
X. "I received you, Jugurtha, at a very early age, into my kingdom,[29] at a time when you had lost your father, and were without prospects or resources, expecting that, in return for my kindness, I should not be less loved by you than by my own children, if I should have any. Nor have my anticipations deceived me; for, to say nothing of your other great and noble deeds, you have lately, on your return from Numantia, brought honor and glory both to me and my kingdom; by your bravery, you have rendered the Romans, from being previously our friends, more friendly to us than ever; the name of our family is revived in Spain; and, finally, what is most difficult among mankind, you have suppressed envy by preeminent merit.[30]
And now, since nature is putting a period to my life, I exhort and conjure you, by this right hand, and by the fidelity which you owe to my kingdom,[31] to regard these princes, who are your cousins by birth, and your brothers by my generosity, with sincere affection; and not to be more anxious to attach to yourself strangers, than to retain the love of those connected with you by blood. It is not armies, or treasures,[32] that form the defenses of a kingdom, but friends, whom you can neither command by force nor purchase with gold; for they are acquired only by good offices and integrity. And who can be a greater friend than one brother to another?[33] Or what stranger will you find faithful, if you are at enmity with your own family? I leave you a kingdom, which will be strong if you act honorably, but weak, if you are ill-affected to each other; for by concord even small states are increased, but by discord, even the greatest fall to nothing.
But on you, Jugurtha, who are superior in age and wisdom, it is incumbent, more than on your brothers, to be cautious that nothing of a contrary tendency may arise; for, in all disputes, he that is the stronger, even though he receive the injury, appears, because his power is greater, to have inflicted it. And do you, Adherbal and Hiempsal, respect and regard a kinsman of such a character; imitate his virtues, and make it your endeavor to show that I have not adopted a better son[34] than those whom I have begotten."
XI. To this address, Jugurtha, though he knew that the king had spoken insincerely,[35] and though he was himself revolving thoughts of a far different nature, yet replied with good feeling, suitable to the occasion. A few days afterward Micipsa died.

بخصوص الخطأ الفادح الآخر المزعوم فأرجو منك التثبت في القراءة . الذي قلته أن الإسكندر و والده توسعا على حساب جيرانهم "أي المدن الإغريقية" فهم لم يكونوا جيرانا لروما حتى يتوسعوا عليها او تتوسع عليهم ثم أن روما كانت لازالت دويلة صغيرة في زمن الإسكندر و لا علاقة لهذا مع المثال الذي سبقه و الذي كان حول توسع روما على حساب الاتروسكيين , فالمثاليين منفصلين و كان علي أن أضع فاصلة أو نقطة حتى تفرق بين المثالين و لو أن الفرق بديهي لمن درس التاريخ القديم .

بخصوص المناذرة فقد كانوا سلالة حكمت دولة تابعة (satellite state/client state) للفرس سميت باسمهم و خضعت لها العديد من قبائل العرب و الشعر الجاهلي و كتب التاريخ تشهد على ذلك و لا يجادل في ذلك إلا جاهل بالتاريخ . و كما أن البربر لم يتوحدوا جميعهم تحت سلطة سياسية واحدة كذلك لم يتوحد العرب تحت سلطة سياسية واحدة إلا بعد الإسلام لكن ذلك لا ينفي وجود دولة أو مملكة المناذرة و مملكة نوميديا اللتان كانتا في جل الأوقات غير مستقلتين بشكل تام و خاضعتان للنفوذ الأجنبي (الفارسي و الروماني) ...